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American pschopaths continue to mass murder .......

BuckinBronco

BuckinBronco

In the 18years before the buy back there were 13 mass shootings resulting in 104 deaths and a further 52 wounded. Refer to linked article in post 67 of this thread. 
professional

professional

It is probably a pretty reasonable assumption. They just aren't the driving factor or the issue that needs addressing out of these incidents. And a handful of incidents doesn't suggest a wider problem with mental health, these guys are outliers.

Addressing mental health would have a negligible impact on these events, a gun buy back and tighter regulations clearly would have an effect. 
HarrySack

HarrySack

Stolen from another forum. 
professional

professional

All good points. You also need to restrict how people are allowed to carry guns in public. Just look at the recent shooting of Trayvon Martin. George Zimmerman was driving to ****ing Target to do some shopping but he has a gun on him? It is just unreasonable. 
MrFourex

MrFourex

By the right hands.......you mean those who are not mentally unstable? 
slip

slip

I think it's important to look at America's past. If their own leaders JFK and Ab Lincoln were assassinated, what chance do the American public have? Guns are a big thing in the States, you only have to go back a few centuries ago when many were living off the land and rifles were needed to defend your property from the Injuns! lol They also had a civil war. It's in their DNA to bear arms!!! I once heard that in the state of Texas, one in three homes has a gun. The American military is a massive war machine too. GUNS, GUNS, GUNS everywhere!!! 
professional

professional

I presume he actually just means people who have some training and are responsible, which sadly is a very small portion of the population. 
slip

slip

What about the argument that since WWII, America has sent troops to Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War and Afghanistan, but when there is a gun / killing issue on home soil there is a problem. Can you have it both ways? Be a massive war machine that can conquer the world with serious weaponry, but complain when killing becomes a big issue on home soil. I'm not saying that war shouldn't exist, there will always be war for many reasons, therefore I am excusing America, but everyone knows that the Americans are serious with their weapons and this is also playing out in their society. In some way, the actions of America have been an influence on it's people.

Another point, how many American movies involve guns!!! Westerns, Cops, War. I bet if you sat down and watched 10 American movies over a week, at least half would involve guns.

I still believe that guns have played a big part in the American history and too many of it's people a gun is just an extension of their hand. The gun does not appeal to the Australian, because we have not lived a history that involved such a thing. 
Morkel

Morkel

Booze on the other hand .... :) 
professional

professional

I'm sure the US's history does play a part in their attitude towards firearms but I don't think they are unique when it comes to their history. Many countries have a history as strongly characterised by violence and conflict but they haven't entered the 21st century with a major issue with gun control and firearms-related violence.

I wonder if there are statistics that show when gun ownership started to peak or grow rapidly in the US. That would be interesting to see. 
professional

professional

Just on that note, Australia does have a reasonable history with regard to guns and military service. They had huge deployments in both World Wars, they participated in the Malayan Emergancy, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan and also a few rather horrible conflicts against upstart Aboriginals before federation. Not to mention the fact that Australia's tight gun regulations are a rather recent thing. It just seems that Australians aren't as concerned about being able to have a gun. 
slip

slip

What's the answer then, senor? How do you tell the average American to no longer bear arms? Why doesn't the government change the constitution. Unless America is so violent you need a gun. Just on Australia, no American gun massacre in numbers killed has topped Port Arthur. 
professional

professional

I dunno, I've got lost as to what we were even arguing about :P.

Fixing the problem in America is just a matter of introducing legislation over time. Give people incentives to return their guns, increase restrictions on who can buy what and where you can carry them.

As with anything, people get used to the status quo. If you slowly change the laws so that carrying a gun is expensive or inconvenient or generally useless then over time people will get used to that and behave accordingly.

There is no great mystery to gun control, it just takes the willingness to implement it and then enforce it. 
bandwagon

bandwagon

Along with education and a recognition that all is not well. A cultural shift is is needed away from the glorification of violence.

" I got a Nine, a sign, a set, and now I got a name " Rage Against the Machine. 
MrFourex

MrFourex

You for some reason have a completely biased opinion on this or have some other inexplicable agenda that I'm unsure of without questioning if you yourself, are suffering from some form of mental illness

and I'm not judging or taking the piss, I'm serious. It's one of only a few possibilities that I can come up with for someone who seems to have some intelligence and yet at the same time can remain so steadfast in not wanting to entertain the idea that there are two issues in the spotlight here.

Tighter gun regulations for sure, that's a gimme........but once again I want to reiterate that it is only part of the problem. The mental health care system in America HAS to be addressed as well. It has been de-constructed and massively under funded for years and has left many many Americans with no place to turn. Even the care givers at times have no idea how to treat some of these patients because of research that hasn't been given the funds to conduct it self properly with. Over 90% of the time unless a patient states outright that "I am going to hurt someone" they are released back into their families care or even worse, left to the own devices.

What I do find ironic ....at least I think that's the term, is that both sides of the argument or as the defendants, pro-gun lobbies and mental health defendants .....is the level of outright stubbornness to concede that yes people....we may have a problem. Some of their comments are as ridiculous as each other.

NRA - What we need is more people owning guns. That would fix the problem.

Mental health lobby - Mental health has nothing to do with this tragedy.

They are both so intrinsically entwined that attempting to fix either one of these problems on their own will no provide no benefit to American citizens at all.

Their shooting rampage toll will inevitably continue to rise and debates like this will continue to occur. 
HarrySack

HarrySack

They've been getting it wrong for years anyways. The real meaning...
http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p534/gnickrapon/BearArms.jpg 
professional

professional

I don't agree. Look at a country like Australia, they introduced strict gun controls and it has resulted in a big decrease (basically none have occurred since) of mass killings involving firearms. However, Australia hasn't made a significant effort to address mental health issues.

The same would be true in America. The US has slightly higher rates of mental illness but the difference is one that isn't necessarily statistically relevant (and certainly doesn't explain the difference between the US and Australia in terms of homicides). Both countries are in a similar position with regard to the prevalence and treatment of mental health.

Institute gun controls and over time they should have an effect. 
professional

professional

I'm not sure that is actually any better though. Which one would you feel safer with?

A guy with a gun or a half man-half bear monster running around.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lh9o2pGZ5M1qee2odo1_400.jpg 
MrFourex

MrFourex

and then....... we'll be talking about mentally unstable killers using knives, machetes, swords, axes

explosives

etc etc 
slip

slip

I don't believe the mental health argument. People in this country can be just
as sick, but they don't pull out an AK. The guys from that school in 1999,
can't remember the name, columbine or something were just a bunch of
smart ass anti-social kids who hated the system. Was Charlie Manson sick?
Was the son of sam sick? Although believing a 200 year old dog possessed
by the devil telling you to murder is pretty messed up, but maybe that was
a put on. He has all his marbles today and has found God. I agree with
Senor, change the laws. 
professional

professional

Err no. Does that happen often in Australia or elsewhere in the world where there are strict regulations on firearms?

Homicides will continue to happen (sometimes perpetrated by mentally unstable individuals) but I haven't seen much evidence to suggest that after gun controls are instituted that people shift from mass killings by firearms to massed killings by alternate means.

You get rid of the problem of concealed firearms or assault rifles and some people will still go out of their way to harm individuals. But that is just a law and order issue. For a few of the criminals it might also be a mental health issue but overall it will just be a regular criminal issue that police forces and governments have to deal with all the time. 
MrFourex

MrFourex

I don't think someone suffering from a mental illness has the qualifications to determine whether or not they need to seek professional help. The fact that they suffer from a disorder / illness surely impedes this from happening. 
MrFourex

MrFourex

 
professional

professional

It is essentially this. Perhaps I've muddled the argument and made my point unclear but this is essentially what I'm trying to say.

The people who commit these crimes may be mentally unstable but that doesn't mean that that is necessarily the reason behind their crimes. Nor does it mean that addressing mental health will be able to stop those particular individuals who feel the need to resort to such violence.

There are millions of people in every country to who suffer from mental illness but only a very small handful ever feel the need to resort to such horrible behaviour.

Saying that the behaviour of such a small group is indicative of a wider mental health problem is like saying that if a few people each year die of a rare flesh-eating bacteria or elephantiasis that it means there is a general health problem that needs to be addressed. They are clearly outliers. That doesn't mean you ignore them but you I don't think you can argue that they reflect on the rest of the population.

And I don't think improving mental health treatment would actually significantly help identifying those particular individuals. People fall through the cracks all the time and for a lot of these guys there was nothing about their behaviour up until the crimes that suggested that they were seriously messed up or even unwell in some cases.

I mean if it came down to profiling people I think you'd have better luck identifying such individuals by looking at males under 30 with access to heavy weaponry rather than trying to look for mentally ill people. 
MrFourex

MrFourex

........
 

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